WHY I AM AN ATHEIST

February 4, 2011 § 41 Comments

I gave an unusual lecture this week. I was invited to Bristol University’s Trinity College, to talk to theology students about ‘Why I am an atheist’. It was an enjoyable event, and I relished debating with an audience that was courteous, articulate and well-informed (and all of them endearingly concerned at my loneliness in being the only atheist in the room).  And, perhaps, I planted a few seeds of doubt in their minds. What was clear, however, was that the difference between between us rested less at the level of philosophical debate than of psychological temper.

My brief was to talk about why I do not see a need for God in my life. I challenged the traditional arguments of God as a necessity for explaining the universe, dispensing moral values and infusing life with meaning. I questioned the belief that we needed a ‘First Cause’ for the universe, or that God was such a First Cause, explored the weaknesses of traditional theological ‘proofs’ of God’s existence, and looked at the fragility of the claim that without God  we would all fall into a moral abyss.

But I also accepted that, in an important sense, all such questioning and criticism is irrelevant to an audience such as this.  No one comes to believe in God because they have been convinced by philosophical argument. No one says, ‘I was unsure about God, but now that I have read Aquinas’ proofs of God’s existence, I am convinced that He is real.’ Rather they insist, as philosopher Peter Stannard does, that ‘I don’t have to believe in God, I know that God exists – that is how I feel.’

The theological arguments for the necessity of God are an attempt to demonstrate not so much the existence of God as the intellectual soundness of belief in a supernatural deity, of striving to establish that such knowingness can be rational. As the eleventh century Christian philosopher Anselm of Canterbury put it, ‘I do not seek to understand in order to have faith, I seek to have faith in order to understand.’ If you already believe in God, then the theological proofs for God’s existence suggest that such belief may not be irrational.  But if you do not believe in God, they certainly do not demonstrate the necessity for doing so.

And this bears upon the differences between atheists and believers. Take, for instance, the Christian belief that God is necessary for the creation and maintenance of the universe, a belief that can be traced back to Aristotle. Behind every change in the universe, Aristotle argued, must lie a cause, and indeed a chain of causes, that brings about that change. But such a chain cannot stretch out for ever because it is impossible to have an infinite series of causes. The first link in the chain, as it were, is what Aristotle called the Unmoved Mover, the First Cause of the cosmos and of all change within it, but which itself is not caused by anything. This argument, which came into the Christian tradition via the Kalām school of Muslim philosophy, was given theological rigour in the work of Thomas Aquinas.

The problems with this argument have long been recognized, including by Christian theologians themselves. Why insist that one cannot have an infinite regress of causes? Why should the idea of an uncaused First Cause seem any more believable than the idea of an infinite regress of causes? Why should the First Cause be God given that God, or at least the God of theists, possesses many properties not implied by the concept of First Cause, such as omniscient, omnipotent, benevolence, the ability to intervene in our lives? And so on.

In the end, though, the difference between atheists and believers lies less in the answers to such questions than in the degree of closure required from those answers. I, as an atheist, am happy to say, ‘I do not know what First Cause is, or even if there is one. It may be that one day we discover the answer to that. Or it may be that we never will. For now I am happy to keep an open mind, accept our ignorance of First Cause and live with the uncertainty of not having one’.

Believers are reluctant to go down that road. They insist that there must be a First Cause and that it must take the form of God. They find it difficult to live with the uncertainty about First Cause that comes with non-belief. In Peter Stannard’s words they know – they have to know – that God exists. Which is why that which divides believers and atheists is a matter not simply of philosophy but also of psychological temper.

It is the same in the debate about God and morality. Believers often claim that without God every human has to make up his or her own mind about what is right and wrong. There is no anchor for moral values. Rather, everyone can pick and choose which values they accept and which they reject. All of which is true. But all which also applies to believers. For pick and choose is exactly what believers do.

Consider the Bible. Leviticus justifies slavery. It tells us that if a ‘man commiteth adultery’, then both ‘the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.’ According to Exodus, ‘thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’. It also insists that those work on the Sabbath may be put to death. Genesis implies that birth control is a capital offence. Proverbs tells us to ‘beat the child with the rod’. And so on.

Few modern day Christians would accept such commands. But many others they would unquestioningly follow. They  pick and choose, in other words, which values make sense and which no longer do so.  Some Christians today think that the Bible justifies the execution of gays. Others, reading scripture differently, insist that practising homosexuals are committing no sin at all. Each reads the Bible in whatever way is necessary to fit it into their own moral framework.

The difference between believers and atheists in not, then, that one picks and chooses moral values, while the other simply receives them from God.  It is that I, as an atheist, accept that values are humanly created, while believers, having humanly chosen what is good and bad, then alienate this decision to God, because that seems provide those values with greater authority. The difference, in other words is between those who are happy to accept the unnerving thought that we live by our own moral standards and those who have a need to set their ethics in concrete by invoking the authority of God.

It is a difference beautifully expressed in Albert Camus’ meditation on faith and fate in The Myth of Sisyphus. Written in the embers of the Second World War, Camus confronts both the tragedy of recent history and what he sees as the absurdity of the human condition. There is, he observes, a chasm between ‘the human need [for meaning] and the unreasonable silence of the world’. Religion is a means of bridging that chasm, but a dishonest one because the certainties of God provide false hope and in so doing undermine our humanity by denying choice. ‘I don’t know if the world has any meaning that transcends it’, Camus writes. ‘But I know that I do not know this meaning and that it is impossible for me just now to know it.’

Camus does not know that God does not exist. But he is determined to believe it, because that is the only way to make sense of being human. Humans have to make their own meaning.  And that meaning can come only through struggle, even if that struggle appears as meaningless as that of Sisyphus, who, having scorned the gods, was condemned by them to spend eternity in the underworld forever rolling a rock to the top of a mountain.

For Camus, religious faith must be replaced not with faithlessness but with a different kind of faith: faith in our ability to live with the predicament of being human. It was a courageous argument, especially in the shadow of the Holocaust. It remains no less important today.

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§ 41 Responses to WHY I AM AN ATHEIST

  • SteveH says:

    I’m on your side with this one (although if pushed I’d tick agnostic box) But I wonder have you read Kant (Critique of Pure Reason to be exact) on this subject? I was overwhelmed by the power of his interllect in this matter. And jumped for joy as he totally demolished the usual so called proofs for God’s existence. But then was dumfounded by his view that we should act if God did indeed exist. (I imagine the categorical imperative comes into play here) Of course I’m simplifying perhaps a little too much. But I was so incensed by his view I literally threw the book at the wall. I did feel guilty about this very quickly and still do. But Kant is not an easy read he requires absolute attention to get him. Anyway just asking.

    • Kenan Malik says:

      It’s quite possible to recognize the logical flaws in theological proofs but still feel the need to believe in God. That’s why I say that such proofs are not a means of ensuring belief, but a post hoc way of attempting to give intellectual ballast to such belief. Whether or not they do is a separate matter to the question of whether one believes – and that’s true even for many believers.

  • Trudi Oliver says:

    we really enjoyed having you talk to us, however I think you will find (judging by the conversations over coffee)that you did not manage to plant any seeds of doubt in our minds! Instead I think you managed to engage us in fervant prayer for you! You may say that we are talking to ourselves, and that prayer changes nothing, and I have to say that I am extremely frustrated at times with a God who does not always answer my prayers. But I am also exremely grateful for the times when he does and usually in the most unexpeced ways.
    I guess niether of us are ready to change our minds and both of us know we are right. Faith is after all about believing in the unprovable so its up to God to reveal himself to you, perhaps he will one day when you least expect it!
    Thank you again for coming and talking to us we all really enjoyed your talk and appreciated your views.

    • Kenan Malik says:

      It was a pleasure. I enjoyed the debate very much – and thanks for taking the trouble to respond here. As you say, neither of us are likely to have changed our minds because, as we discussed then, and as I discuss here, it is not a difference that can be resolved at a purely philosophical level. It depends upon how much faith one has in humanity, and upon whether you believe that humans are capable themselves of infusing meaning, purpose and fulfilment into our collective lives. But the fact that neither of us are likely to have changed our minds does not make our debate any less important or worthwhile.

      • Al P says:

        Dear Kenan,
        That was a great lecture. Thank you so much for coming to Trinity and sharing your views.

        I was impressed with your intellectual prowess and the strength of your argument against the ‘necessity of God’. I loved the journey through the Cosmological arguments and others for the existence of God etc and the ‘theological flaws’. I was pleased you acknowledged the elephant in the room in that all of the audience had had some ‘revelation’ and come to the conclusion that the existence of God could be explained in the person of Jesus.

        However, I was intrigued by your answers to some of the questions put forward which the above assertion (i.e. based on historical person of Jesus) which included (1)”Peter Stannard: ‘I don’t have to believe in God, I know that God exists – that is how I feel.’” and the rather tendentious supposition that (2) Christianity simply filled some ideological vacuum in the Hellenistic World and (3) just a case of competing relative truth with many others i.e. Islam claiming primacy. Perhaps you could help me out here, perhaps I didn’t quite get it?

        1) I think some of the students were asking all well and good talking about the concept of a ‘deity’ but those all come crashing by the challenge of the claims, life, character of the historical person of Jesus. How could an obscure, lacking a philosophy, faith based on the scandalous (even by Hellenistic standards)death of a Jew in some backwater province change the world? Were the students actually demonstrated reasoned conclusions on the wholistic basis of intellect, experience and transformation?

        2) Don’t forget Hellenism, and the Roman Empire allowed the practice of many wonderful and mysterious faiths – one of them being even Judaism. Christianity is so countercultural to the noble-death, heroic culture of the Hellensitic world. Frankly, Cicero, Celsius, Suetonius would have considered the proclammation of a crucified deity as utter tosh. Morever, it was also a time of Pax Romana – ‘good times’ for being a Roman. So how could this minute faith demolish every single philosophy, ideology, violent opposition pitted against it without the offer of any material gain (pre-Constantine)and without the taking up of arms or militarism to change the whole world and to become the fastest growing and largest of all faiths twice as large (numerically) as all other faiths (including Islam) put together? What about the fledgling Christian communities in non-Hellenistic places as far as India, China, Ethiopia? Surely this is powerful evidence

        3)You cited relative truths. However, Islam is based on supposedly an angelically-mediated text to a Prophet. One could argue that there are good grounds to support the view that Islam, which took up militaristic expansion, filled a vacuum following the Persian Sassanid attack on weakened Roman (Byzantium) Empire, and the Christian view of State and religion (Augustine’s City of God). The point is Islam’s truth claims are based on an Angelic-mediated text received by one person and therefore quite subjective, whereas Christianity is based on the person of Jesus Christ who was experienced by many. That’s a massive difference both of objectivity and magnitude and requires investigation.

        Even I would have strong sympathies with your argument that there is ‘no necessity for a Divine being’ in the absence of Jesus Christ. Therefore the arguments for a Divine being without reference, or forensic investigation of the existence, the claims of this historical person Jesus (and because of ‘History’ requiring historigraphical, histori-sociologigal interogation) are simply circular and ultimately I am sad to say of no meaning. They can only have meaning in reference to Jesus. Please excuse my bluntness.

        The point is Christians may disagree on aspects of praxis (hence the different denominations), on ethics (which is your point about morality) but the one thing every Christian denomination believes and accepts as truth is the (Monotheistic)Trinitarian view of God, the view that Jesus as one person of the Trinity became incarnate, died and was resurrected. This is how the Church is ‘One’ and united.

        Many thanks for your lecture and I am looking forward to writing an essay on this wonderfully stimulating subject.

    • SteveH says:

      Re answers to prayers I re-heard that old saw the other day. Person asked why God had not granted their request in prayer (given idea God answers all prayers) riposte was this time God’s answer was no. So still an answer to labour the point the no can do is still an answer

  • gene weingarten says:

    Interesting. Thank you both. My atheism is based upon a bit of anthropological deductive reasoning that I summarized in this online chat. You only need to read the introduction to the chat, but you must also click on the accompanying chart. http://wapo.st/hYj7YH

    Gene Weingarten, the Washington Post

    • Kenan Malik says:

      Thanks. If only it were as simple as that chart… :-)

      • gene weingarten says:

        But it IS as simple as that chart. You’re mucking it up with all that danged scholarship.

      • lol says:

        of course, if you’ll allow me to be pedantic (as lovers of mathematics are liable to be):
        >the chart displays the degree to which humans choose to attribute phenomena to supernatural causes, not the likelihood of the existence of a god being true. A and B refer to where human perception might lie.
        >newton was a (granted, intriguingly unconventional) firm theist who believed in the necessity of divine intervention.
        >a mathematician’s nitpick: you seem to be conflating empirical deduction with mathematical proof.

        of course, i realise that i am possibly overanalysing a graph joke.

  • somemusician says:

    The problem with giving religious lectures (evidence of which you can see in the above comment) is that if one does not already have doubts going in to the lecture, then there is no point. Everyone, atheists included, walks into a religious lecture or debate already with a preconceived notion and they leave with that same notion. They go to the lecture to simply validate their own worldview.

    I enjoyed reading your post, however.

  • Peter K says:

    Yes thank you for one of the best lectures we’ve had this year. Really stimulating and you definitely landed a few telling blows on Christianity. I found myself agreeing with much that you said, sometimes through gritted teeth!

    In some ways, though, your lecture strengthened my faith, rather than weakened it. When I became a follower of Jesus over a decade ago one of the first books that I read was Bertrand Russell’s ‘Why I am not a Christian’ – it certainly critiqued the church and Christendom sharply and often accurately, but as to the central reason why I had become a follower of Jesus – that after studying the New Testament carefully I had come to believe that is was a historically accurate set of events, that Jesus Christ was divine and had risen from the dead – Russell was silent, apart from the odd harrumph that ‘you can’t believe that stuff any more’.

    In the discussion you did engage with Jesus (certainly more than Russell !) but your argument that looking at Jesus in the gospels was like ‘peering down a well and seeing your own reflection’ failed to convince: people like me who read the gospels and see a divine Jesus who is resurrected from the dead are definitely not seeing their own reflections! I think that to convince me you (and other atheists) would need to engage far more with the historic documents themselves, and not rehash tired (and often disproved) arguments from 19th Century German liberal protestants.

    Thank you, though, for a really interesting time – I hope you enjoyed it and I know you’ve given us a lot of food for thought.

    • somemusician says:

      Would you be able to share your evidence for the historicity of the Bible and Jesus, Peter?

      • Peter K says:

        Hi somemusician,

        I think my first answer would be to say, “Have a read yourself”. I’m specifically focussing on Jesus here – he’s the centrepoint of it all – so would recommend reading a gospel. Mark is nice and short, but I might point you to Luke, who specifically emphasises at the start that he’s done a thoroughgoing survey of the historicity of his account.

        I’ve just done a Google search and think this article is good, if quite involved: http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=207 (sorry I’m rubbish with HTML tags, if you can tell me how to use them I’d be very grateful).

        The article is quite long but the key points are a) There are so many early manuscripts that barring the odd minor verse we’re sure we’re reading what the authors wrote, b) that there’s clear eyewitness evidence in play, c) that they were all written in the 1st Century, well within living memory of Jesus, and d) the storytelling tradition was much stronger in those days, so they didn’t forget things as much (not that anyone would forget these events in a hurry!)

        You’ll appreciate that there’s a wide variety of understandings about the historicity of the OT, among Christians as well as the wider world, and I think it’s not nearly so important an issue as focussing on the person of Christ, so I’ll stick with that.

  • somemusician says:

    For clarification, I used to be a Fundamental Baptist and am fully aware of the texts of the Bible.

    Firstly, one cannot use the historicity of the ancient texts to prove that someone was God. For example, I could claim today that I am God, convince 500 people that I am God, have numerous books written about me, news coverage galore, yet all of these things does not make my original assertion true. Even if the historicity of the N.T. is valid (which I would argue that it is not because there is much evidence against it) it does not make Jesus God.

    I would put more emphasis on external references to the events of N.T. Some would claim that there are some external sources, such as Josephus, that would corroborate the Christian account of Jesus. However, there is even doubt whether the paragraph that Josephus “wrote” about Jesus is authentic. Indeed, there are many scholars who would argue that the *one single paragraph* that Josephus wrote about Jesus in his many *books* is actually a forgery (I won’t go into detail why). Furthermore, the earliest text to be written about Jesus (even according to the site you provided) is th early second century. The early Roman Republic history is among one of the most historically written about time periods; with authors who lived at that time documenting nearly every detail. Yet, there is no mention of Jesus in any of these historians writings. For example, Philo-Judaeus was a *Jewish* historian who lived at the same time as the accounts of Jesus would have it. You would think that a Jewish historian would have reported on all the miraculous things that caused such a conniption among the Jews.

    There are many miracles that would have, surely, cause quite a stir at that time. Most prominently would be the events that took place around the time of the crucifixion. According to Matthew 27, the tombs were opened and many saints rose from the dead. Not to mention a terrible earthquake and a solar eclipse. One would think all these events would have been documented.

    I could continue, but I do not wish to belabor the point.

    • Al P says:

      Dear Somemusician, Great debate..just thought I’d join in on the ‘historicity’ claims. Frederick Kenyon (one of the greatest authorities in the field of NT textural criticism) said. “It cannot be asserted too strongly that in substance the text of the NT is certain. The number of manuscripts of the NT, of early translations of it and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the church is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of even doubtful passages are preserved in some one or other of these ancient authorities. This can be said of no other ancient book in the world. Scholars are satisfied that they possess substantially true text of the principal greek and roman writers whose works have come down to us – Sophocles, Thucydides, Cicero and Virgil. yet our knowledge of their writings depends on a mere handful of manuscripts whereas the manuscripts of the NT are counted by hundreds, even thousands.” we have 13,000 manuscript copies of portions of the NT.
      Warwick Montgomery (another leading academic scholar)said “to be skeptical of the resultant text of the NT books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the NT.” this certainly includes manuscript evidence of caesar’s gaellic wars.
      Of course, the central point of these texts and of Christianity is not that it’s based on a philosophy or angelic mediated texts but on the revelation of a historical person called Jesus , who did and said and made extraordinary claims. The gospels serve as eye-witness accounts and are validly produced as circumstantial evidence to attest to Jesus’ claims. Probably the most stupendous claim is that ‘Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead’(not an avatar or ideology) – a feat that is not repeated or claimed by any other faith in the world or in antiquity. Of course you might say, ” Yes, but still the existence of these texts doesn’t really prove that these events happened. After all we see ‘spin’ all the time.” However, contrary to misinformation overload, might I suggest that, in the same way that I and many others witnessed the Berlin Wall come down, the texts just supporting the claim go back to those who knew Jesus were witnesses, who went on to establish the fastest growing ,and still growing, faster than any other spiritual movement in history on the basis of a person who evidently was executed on a cross and then went on to come back to life- a real event for which they went on to be skinned, burnt, beheaded,crucified, fed to wild beasts because they believed a lie. Now I’ve heard and I’m aware of many explanations but I just don’t find them convincing enough in the light of the people involved who gave their lives. Surely, if it was fake all one need do is ‘produce the body’ that would dispel the myth immediately and kill it dead (pardon the pun).

    • Al P says:

      Dear Somemusician,
      Really value your comments and hope you consider this as engagement with you. Just want to pick up on some of the points you make:

      “Firstly, one cannot use the historicity of the ancient texts to prove that someone was God. For example, I could claim today that I am God, convince 500 people that I am God, have numerous books written about me, news coverage galore, yet all of these things does not make my original assertion true.”

      I hope the stuff I have outlined elsewhere addresses the issue of the validity of historicity. Yes, you are right it doesn’t make your ‘original assertion true’. But if what you said came true, and moreover, was backed by your character then well the assertion might be true.

      It isn’t that the only evidence for christain claims is the NT: there are archaeological finds like urns with incriptions of the death and resurrection. However, the best objective argument for the resurrection is the historical existence of the church from the first century onwards. Futhermore, many jewish messiahs e.g. Bar Kochba etc. were rounded up and killed by the romans and we never hear about them again. So what was it about the Christians that so changed this group that they turned the world upside down?

      You quote ‘Philo-Judaeus’an Alexandrian Jewish historian who lived at the time possibly towards the end of Jesus’ ministry and beginning of the early Christian communinites. Now unlike modern day news reporting why would Philo report on events in far away Jerusalem when his own community was undergoing a pogrom and he was appealing to Caesar?

      “You would think that a Jewish historian would have reported on all the miraculous things that caused such a conniption among the Jews. ”

      What about the Jewish Talmud then : “It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that “[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him.” But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and God said (Deuteronomy 13:9) “Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him.” Yeshu was different because he was close to the government

      • Hello Al P,

        There are several points that you made that I would like to contend with, but first I would like to make a general assertion. I think the tendency to equate general historical texts and texts that claim supernatural phenomena, which I’m sure you would agree the Bible would fall into the category of the latter, is false. It is one thing to take historical evidence at face value, but should not texts that claim these supernatural phenomena require a higher standard of corroboratory evidence? For instance, when reading Hesiod’s ‘Theogony’ you would surely not say that it must be true, because look we have the documents. I know, that the texts from N.T. are more valid for numerous reasons, but the principle still applies.

        Now, to address your points. I feel like asserting that because a church quickly arose still does not lend evidence to proof of God and there are several reasons why I would assert this claim, but I feel like I would be going off topic. The general claim ‘historicity does not give evidence for the supernatural’ is valid for many of the points that have been brought upon. Surely, we would not be having this discussion when talking about Mayan mythology or even Greek mythology. Yet, the Greeks incessantly wrote about their gods.

        I think the claim “Probably the most stupendous claim is that ‘Jesus bodily resurrected from the dead’(not an avatar or ideology) – a feat that is not repeated or claimed by any other faith in the world or in antiquity.” is merely ignorance of many of mythological stories (and please do not confuse ignorance to be condescending in any way). Here is a list of deities that have similar life stories to Jesus(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity) Note also, that the list almost exclusively pre-dates Jesus, as well.

        I don’t understand the point of reciting the Talmud when your (as well as others on here) a main premise of your argument was the relation to how close to Jesus’ supposed life the text were written. Was the Talmud not written between 200C.E. and 500C.E.? Hardly satisfactory.

        No, I find the real problem with arguing historicity validity with many Christians is that they seem to think their religious history is purely objective, while the history every other religion is purely subjective. What knowledge do you possess that they do not?

  • Phil says:

    Doubts are part of the package. I reckon life without doubt isn’t faith but brittle foreclosure.

  • Peter K says:

    Thanks for putting it in context, somemusician. I admit I’m not familiar with Philo-Judaeus, and do know that Josephus is disputed (not least by our New Testament tutor!). Equally some of the text is difficult to understand or interpret – of course any write up of events has a degree of editor’s interpretation about them.

    For me the accounts have a clear ring of truth to them. Equally, the ‘conspiracy theories’ that say that Jesus didn’t die on the cross or wasn’t raised have significant weaknesses too – in my view they are implausible.

    Reading through, it seems clear to me at many places he believed himself to be God, so the question is, ‘was he?’. Putting it all together, I believe he was.

  • Alex says:

    Missing word: “because that seems [to] provide those values with greater authority.”

  • Felipe G. Nievinski says:

    “For Camus, religious faith must be replaced not with faithlessness but with a different kind of faith: faith in our ability to live with the predicament of being human.” I agree with that ideal, but would add a caveat saying that, if such a replacement is not immediatly possible, I’d rather stick with a hopeful religious person rather than a hopeless non-religious person. This is more a criticism to the likes of Dawkins, who insist on stripping down all dignity from religious persons.

  • Trudi Oliver says:

    it all boils down to faith. if we prove the existance of God there would be no need for faith. Jesus told doubting thomas ‘because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who hae not seen and yet have believed.’ (John 20:29 NIV) I’m not a great thinker, Kenan’s lecture whilst incredibly informative held many ideas that I’m not able to grasp, but I have a faith that comes from a personal relationship and encounter with the risen Christ. The proof I have is in the written word of the bible and in the word made flesh. I do understand that for some, that is not enough, and like Thomas will not believe until they have tangible proof, they only have to open thier hearts and let God in to discover the promise of life in all its fullness, to become the person they have been created to be.

  • Kenan Malik says:

    On the historicity of the Bible: Jesus wrote nothing. Most of his followers were illiterate and there exists no eyewitness account of his life or ministry. Virtually all that we know about him and his beliefs come from the Gospels and from the letters of St Paul. All were educated Greek-speaking Hellenized Jews, outsiders to Judea. None knew Jesus and none is likely even to have known anyone who did. How many of the stories in their accounts are true has been a matter of debate for two thousand years. Modern scholars dispute even whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

    There were originally around twenty Gospels, four of which eventually became part of the official Christian canon because they fitted into the authorized version of the Christian story. And even the canonical four were changed to fit in. Mark, for instance, chronologically the earliest of the canonical Gospels, originally contained no account of the Resurrection. This was tacked on in the second century when the issue of the Resurrection became central to Christian belief.

    In the end, of course, none of this matters to those who believe. No amount of scholarly research can settle the question of whether one should suspend all disbelief and accept incidents such as the Virgin birth and the Resurrection as being miraculously true, any more that it can settle the question of whether one should suspend all disbelief and accept the Qur’an as the word of God given to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, or indeed whether Krishna lifted up a mountain on his little finger to save the villagers of Braj from torrents of rain as many Hindus believe. Christians suspend all disbelief about the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, but refuse to do so about Muhammad’s Revelation. Muslims do the opposite. Atheists see no reason to suspend disbelief in either case.

    Of course, Christians will say that Islamic truth is subjective while their own is objective. Muslims (and Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains…) beg to differ. That’s the nature of sectarian conflict.

    But consider the question of the Trinity, which Al P raises. Christians only came to believe in it after several centuries of doctrinaire struggle and the savage repression of so-called heretics. ‘Truth’ was established by repression and force. And even then different conceptions of the Trinity created major schisms (most notably between Eastern and Western Christianity) and continues to divide denominations. I’ve no interest in getting into a theological debate, but it’s important not to obscure the history of such debates, especially when it relates to question of ‘truth’.

    • Al P says:

      Thank you Kenan. Wasn’t sure if I had understood correctly. You wrote :“No amount of scholarly research can settle the question of whether one should suspend all disbelief and accept incidents such as the Virgin birth and the Resurrection as being miraculously true… Christians suspend all disbelief about the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection, but refuse to do so about Muhammad’s Revelation. Muslims do the opposite. Atheists see no reason to suspend disbelief in either case. …”
      Historicity : ” The thing is there isn’t a call to suspend disbelief , you see there is no question that all the most challenging aspects of christian theology can be traced back to the time of Jesus himself. It is easy to demonstrate this at a technical level.

      • Al P says:

        I am indebted to you for stretching me. I agree with you in so many ways. You are right that there is intense scholarly debate about the identity of Jesus, however, I don’t think there are credible scholars who dispute the basic historical facts I alluded to (i.e. there was a ‘Jesus’, there was a ‘death’ and there was an early ‘resurrection CLAIM’).
        In terms of the Gospels, all of them including Mark have the resurrection or an ‘empty tomb’ accounts.

    • Al P says:

      Thanks Kenan, I maybe completely wrong about this in which case my Undergrad. essays are heading towards low marks. Was surprised about views about the Gospels. As you are a prolific writer and broadcaster I am sure you recognise that there are stylistic, genre conventions you adhere to when you write. I am sure you would agree that the writers of the Classics or those around the time of Jesus would also observe the conventions of their day. As I understand it, the NT was written in Greek so that it could be widely understood. Jewish historians of this era collected four accounts of the same thing and set them side by side – hence the four gospels. The literary form of the gospels is known as “a life” . In this ancient form the writer would focus on the birth, teaching and death of the main character which is what each of the authors of the Gospel do.
      The texts were written down in the form we have today within the life-span of the first disciples. One reason was that the early church wanted accurate accounts from those who were with Jesus because most of them were being martyred. Other letters in the NT have an earlier composition date (15, 25 years after Jesus’ death). These contain all the most challenging aspects of christian theology e.g. Jesus is the Son of God, he was raised from the dead.
      At a technical level, it is easy to trace the origin of these beliefs to the time of Jesus himself. It is impossible to regard them as a later attempt to mythologise a great teacher. There was in fact no ugly great ditch between the time Jesus taught and the time when what he taught was written down.
      I concede that the authors of the gospels obviously had theological beliefs about Jesus (i guess you would too had you been an eye-witness of his resurrection) and do not write impartial accounts as we understand such things. That is very different from assuming they felt free to make things up. Moreover, since the Christian claim is that ‘God dwells among us or with us’ it requires a theological assessment rather like the ‘Origin of species’ might require
      an evolutionary assessment.

    • Al P says:

      These are great points but I think some correction might be required: “consider the question of the Trinity… Christians only came to believe in it after several centuries of doctrinaire struggle and the savage repression of so-called heretics”
      I agree with you that some heinous and despicable things have been done (still being done) in the Name of the Church or Christianity. However, (I’ve alluded to this earlier) every aspect of Christian doctrine virgin birth, resurrection etc. is contained in all these documents which predated the deliberations of the Councils like Nicea by two centuries. The suggestion that there was some mythologising, invention or doctoring centuries later to promulgate a ‘Christian’ view is simply without any historical basis whatsoever.
      Furthermore, let’s be historically clear the Councils were not meeting to discuss whether ‘Jesus was a good teacher’ or whether he was ‘resurrected’. At this time in Church history it was accepted without any form of repression that Jesus was the Son of God, divine and human. The issues discussed were in what sense was Jesus ‘human’ and in what sense was he divine. Arianism was jettisoned simply because it didn’t do justice to the writings of the first disciples, which were taken to be authoritative.

  • Kenan Malik says:

    On the success of Christianity: I find it extraordinary, Al P, that you imagine that the success of Christianity is ‘evidence’ for the truth of its claims. Certainly it’s evidence that it filled a spiritual, psychological or sociological need. But unless one takes an anti-realist view of truth, truth does not depend upon how many people believe a claim, or how quickly that claim spreads, but whether or not that claim corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

    It’s striking that believers want to have it both ways. Al P insists that Christian truth is ‘objective’ and provable while Trudi argues that ‘faith is about believing in the unprovable so its up to God to reveal himself to you’.

    Finally, it’s worth pointing out that belief and non-belief are not equally ‘faith’ positions. Atheists do not believe in God because there is no evidence to compel them to. Believers believe despite that lack of evidence. That’s a fundamental difference.

    • Al P says:

      We can go round and round, when it comes to the ‘QUESTION OF TRUTH’ my whole point which I think might have been overlooked, which goes beyond literacy, class or status, is this : many people give their lives for a cause, and we all know of people who have done so. I’m sure you would agree that those who chose to give their lives for a cause did it because they believed it to be the truth (to the detriment of all other ideologies),and this must be the case for all those Apostles, countless of 1st Christian disciples who gave their lives in the arenas of the Roman Empire. So why doubt their sincerity, were they all deluded? The thing is they never claim to die for a FAITH but for a FACT. They are the so-called witnesses of the resurrection and they go on to proclaim the resurrection and give their lives because they refuse to stop proclaiming what they say they saw and heard with their own eyes and about the life changing encounters they experienced. Again, their’s is not a faith statement but a witness statement. The question is not, will people die for something they believe in? We know they will. The question is, will they die for something they couldn’t possibly believe in because they made it up?

      • Al P says:

        My guess is that this is where both Trudi and I are in agreement that we may know the immamnence , the personal revelation of Jesus but it takes a lifetime and afterlife to know the full transcendence of God.

      • Al P says:

        You have been more than generous in giving time and space to engage and dialogue with me and I very much appreciate this. Isn’t it wonderful that we can debate in this way and not get staked or racked. I am sure you don’t mean to imply that Christians, like me, have been ‘perfectly happy fluffy bunnies’ in their beliefs that lack any kind of rational coherence. I hope this will explain the logical steps a little:
        1) I believe Jesus was both fully human and fully divine – God the Son
        2) I believe this in part because I consider the evidence in history for the resurrection of Jesus to be convincing, and also because of my experience and investigation as a forensic scientist
        3) because I believe in 1) and 2) I believe what Jesus says about ‘God’.
        4) he says that ‘God’ is love.
        5) unless he means “love but not as you understand it in any way” he must mean love as we understand it.
        6) no one just loves. you love someone or something
        7) therefore it is not unreasonable to suppose that God who is love was always going to create something/someone to love because that is what love does. it is part of the job description. This is what I find gives meaning.
        To all who have interacted with my comments
        a huge thank you for all the stimulating discussion. I’m off now to share my witness story and watch the church grow. Sadly I won’t be around to continue in this blog – and youa re probably tiring of me – but i want you to know that you’ve really inspired me to try to keep on doing what I do. All the very best to you.

  • Peter K says:

    Thank you, Kenan, for engaging so much with us. If I can just add my haporth, I have to say that I find your idea that the New Testament is not based on eyewitness evidence very unconvincing.

    To think of 4 examples off the top of my head, Peter’s first letter – as far as I’m aware the authorship is not disputed -starts with a prayer of praise for the resurrection; in 1st Corinthians 15 Paul points to there being over 500 witnesses to the resurrection, most of whom were still alive at the time of Paul’s writing (the implication being ‘don’t believe me? Go and ask them!’); 1 John explicitly states that the writer actually touched Jesus, as well as seeing and hearing him; and Luke’s use of the word ‘we’ in the later part of Acts points to him being not only an eyewitness but part of the action. Given that he starts his gospel with a strong statement of having assessed the evidence thoroughly it’s clear he was close to key figures.

    Also, remember that these other gospels were generally written much later than the four we have, and sometimes originate from rather bizarre groupings – so I don’t see any great conspiracies going on, rather just discernment. If someone came along today saying they’d discovered a new Picasso or Turner, but they smelt of fresh paint and the brushwork was pretty ropey, you’d be suspicious too. Don’t pan the early church for that.

    I have to say also I rather resent the implication that Christians are obscurantists who cling on to ‘faith’ in spite of the evidence. As well as of course many academics, there are many highly intelligent people working in secular ‘evidence-based’ jobs who hold a high view of the historic reliability of Scripture. To cite just one example, at Trinity’s academic awards ceremony last week, the degrees were given out by Bristol’s Deputy Vice-Chancellor David Clarke, a Christian who is also professor of law at the university. I think he’s pretty capable of assessing evidence and making judgements based on it.

    Personally speaking, as someone who’s read the Bible almost every day for 14 years and I continue to be impressed by the obvious closeness of the writers to the events, and also the internal consistency of the 27 documents, written by different people in varying situations. I hope that doesn’t sound too much like a person justifying their own prejudices, but it’s often in the asides and ‘peripheral’ material that comes through regular reading that I see the eyewitness touches. Read it yourself and I think you’ll see what I mean.

    I don’t think Trudi and Al’s perspectives are too far apart, because I think the debate incorporates both differing worldviews and ‘on the ground’ evidence. If I were to crudely call the Christian world-view as ‘permeable box’, where a spiritual element can operate alongside the material, and your world-view ‘closed-box’, where’s there’s no spiritual element, then clearly ‘closed-box’ people have to view much of the NT – certainly the miracles and definitely the resurrection – as one big mistake, and have to find various conspiracy theories to explain it. But these conspiracy theories have a habit of falling apart on closer inspection – and as I say I find some of your arguments pretty weak. For myself I’ve held both ‘closed-box’ and ‘permeable-box’ views in my life, but I think the latter makes far more sense, especially about the New Testament and the Person about whom it testifies.

  • Mark Hopkins says:

    Dear Kenan,

    I greatly enjoyed your lecture at Trinity on Thursday – in particular your second point about how there is no need to believe that there is an absolute standard of what is good and evil, and that “everyone can pick and choose which values they accept and which values they reject”. I was hoping to question you further on this – however my fellow students seemed more vociferous in wanting to discuss evidence for the resurrection, so I didn’t get a chance to.

    I agree that as a Christian I do interpret the Bible with regard to ethics. So for example I believe burning witches and executing gay people is morally evil, whereas some Christians have argued this is acceptable to God and that the Bible sanctions it. However I do believe that committing adultery is morally wrong, as God has declared it to be so when giving the ten commandments. My belief therefore is that there is an absolute standard of what is right and wrong which God defines. My interpretation of this standard will be imperfect; I will have got some things wrong and some things right (I hope I am right on witch burning being wrong). My ethical system is therefore subjective, in that it is dependent on how I interpret God’s revelation through the Bible, but not completely so. So I refrain from doing some things because I believe God has defined them to be wrong, even if subjectively they don’t feel wrong to me. Equally some things I define as wrong not because I can see anything wrong in them, but because I believe God sees them to be wrong. I would see incest as wrong only because the Bible prohibits it, because I believe God revealed his will to Israelite society 3500 years ago that it is wrong. But to atheists wanting to commit incest I couldn’t say that I subjectively feel they are doing anything at all wrong, only that the law of our country prohibits it. I can, however, say that as a Christian I believe God thinks it is wrong, just as a Muslim believes God thinks my eating pork is wrong.

    I know is perfectly possible to believe in moral laws of good and evil without believing there is a God behind them – my nan says she believes in good but not God. Goodness for her is an unchanging standard – if pushed you could argue that the impersonal existance of an unchanging goodness is as a god for her.

    However, I was interersted in your position that there is no need for an absolute sytem of moral belief; “no anchor for moral values”. I know some people have argued that many societies in the world have broadly agreed on their ethical systems (ie. generally agreeing murdering other people and exploiting the poor is wrong). I don’t think this holds very much weight, as the Salem witch trials and the Holocaust, as well as systems of government which execute people for their beliefs and sexuality are horrendous examples of how societies clearly formed moral systems with verey different views of the morality of killing and murder.

    In a lot of cases people say the “golden rule” is used as a system of morality – we don’t hurt others because others will hurt us back. However this breaks down in the case of two psychopaths who don’t see anything wrong with hurting each other – say by hitting each other with whips. We might want to tell them to stop because what they are doing is wrong, or believe that they are mentally deficient, but without a belief in an absolute morality there is no way to say what they are doing is wrong, only that they might damage each other. Similarly, if a business executive is exploiting a third world country unethically, but does not think he is doing anything wrong, it is hard to say he is doing anything wrong without appealing to a higher authority. The God of the prophets of Israel, for me as a Christian, spends a good deal of time telling the rich they are not to exploit the poor and he will punish them for it. But the businessman without this a system of ethics telling him that it is wrong to exploit the poor as it hurts them could appeal to a personal ethical system that says it is prudent to exploit the poor to prolong his own survival, and provide maximum comfort for himself.

    I would be further intersted in knowing how, as an atheist, you grapple with formulating an ethical system of morality (which guards against your own desires to do wrong as well as right), in the absence of a belief in an absolute or divine system of morality.

    Best wishes, Mark

  • bensix says:

    Kenan,

    No one comes to believe in God because they have been convinced by philosophical argument. No one says, ‘I was unsure about God, but now that I have read Aquinas’ proofs of God’s existence, I am convinced that He is real.’

    Is this view informed by your disregard for first cause arguments or is it the other way around? Edward Feser, for example – who springs to mind as he’s the author of Aquinas – claims to have been a nonbeliever who discovered faith through his reflections. I’m sure that he’s not alone (although, of course, that doesn’t mean that their reflections weren’t a load of, er – rot).

    I share your enthusiasm for Camus. Peter Zapffe was an interesting (though a leeetle bit pessimistic) thinker in the same vein.

  • AdzB says:

    Kenan,

    Thank you again for one of the best discussions we’ve had. If I’m honest, when you wrote of a sense of ‘seeds of doubt’ it smarted somewhat (a good thing), so since then I’ve been reflecting on why you might have felt that. Other’s have responded that actually they had their faith confirmed (would they say anything else at a Vicar factory!). I am responding in the context of having had the next lecture in the series (a famous missiologist proposing how we should make an apologetic).

    In today’s lecture I felt we gave ‘the guy on the same side as us’ a much harsher grilling, than we did ‘the guy on the other side’ last week. To me this speaks of a community which has an accepting engagement with those to whom we wish knew the truth. This is what I think you felt when you sensed that were having the ‘seeds of doubt’ planted in us. I think it also speaks of a thinking community willing to challenge our, sometimes inherited, beliefs – the result of which is always a strengthening of our faith.

    The ‘seeds of doubt’ is also a great strategy for apologetics, used by many (eg. Rob Bell) but I guess your upholding of ‘none of the above’ would negate such a strategy… you would make a great apologist…

    Kenan, you are very much on our hearts, we are still engaging with you and are praying for you. I guess you had better pray twice as hard if you don’t want God to walk through the door as you suggested would be helpful.

    With very best wishes,

    Adam

  • Kenan Malik says:

    There is not much point in me extending the argument about the historical truth of the Bible since it is not going to change anyone’s mind. All I will say is that those who believe that there exists proper evidence for, say, the resurrection of Christ clearly have a different concept of ‘evidence’ than I do.

    On the question of moral values: however much believers may say that God anchors their values, the fact is that they, just like non-believers, have to decide for themselves what is right and right and wrong. And that’s why Christians disagree on everything from abortion to homosexuality, adultery to violence, secularism to what constitutes a just war. But every Christian also believes that their particular moral stance is given by God. Believers and non-believers both have to humanly create ethics. But believers then alienate that human creation to God. That may provide a sense of permanence. But even a cursory look at the history religious precepts shows that while the idea that they are absolute is unchanging, the precepts themselves are highly flexible.

  • [...] difference in temper Following up on my previous post: Kenan Malik offers a psychological take on the differences between believers and atheists: In the end, though, the difference between [...]

  • Couple of small things:

    1. Insofar as I know, Trinity College doesn’t belong to the University of Bristol.

    2. “No one comes to believe in God because they have been convinced by philosophical argument.”

    The problem is, that as bad as the arguments are, some… let’s say…philosophically illiterate people do. I mean people who don’t understand how good arguments are constructed, don’t understand what makes a good inference, etc. This is why religious apologists (e.g. William Lane Craig) make a big deal of appearing to advance good arguments. They take their audiences/readers on a journey of non-sequiturs, but some people are sufficiently ignorant that they come to faith this way. (I’ve met some.) The reasons why they are vulnerable to such nonsense is a separate issue.

  • Diana Hereld says:

    After reading, as a Universalist Christian, I have no further seeds of doubt in my God than I had before.

    You have, however, convinced me that very sane Atheists do in fact exist, and for this I applaud and thank you wholeheartedly.

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